For generations, the natural world has been somewhere we go for refuge: to quiet the noise, regain perspective and feel held by something larger than ourselves. But what happens when rising heat, wildfire smoke, polluted water and disappearing wildlife make that refuge itself feel less safe?
In this episode, Tim talks with philosopher and environmental thinker Roger Gottlieb, author of Nature Spirituality and Environmental Crisis. Roger explores what climate breakdown is doing not only to ecosystems, but to our spiritual relationship with the natural world: the grief of losing places and creatures we love, the disappearance of nature as something seemingly permanent, and the challenge of finding gratitude without pretending everything will be okay.
The conversation moves through Roger’s striking image of Holy Saturday — the space before anyone knows resurrection is coming — and asks what spirituality might look like without a guaranteed happy ending. Do we still need hope, or might courage and love be enough? Roger argues that even when we cannot know the outcome, we can still act: “If you don’t win, you don’t win. You tried. You showed the love.”
After the interview, Tim and Joy reflect on hope, ecological grief and the meaning of small acts of care. They also wrestle with Roger’s phrase “It’s enough that it ever was”, asking whether it sounds different to someone who has enjoyed the natural world for eighty years than to a younger generation only beginning to discover what they may inherit.
Interview starts at 11m 12s
WEBSITE
BOOKS
Nature Spirituality and Environmental Crisis
Spirituality: What It Is and Why It Matters
A Spirituality of Resistance: Finding a Peaceful Heart and Protecting the Earth
QUOTES
“If you don’t win, you don’t win. You tried. You showed the love.”
“It’s enough that it ever was.”
“Is there a Christianity that’s possible on Saturday night as it gets dark and the Messiah has been gone, buried in a cave for 24 hours? I think we’re in something like that in relation to nature.”