Wayne Jacobsen was a successful pastor. But as his disillusionment with the institutional nature of church grew, he decided to walk away and begin a search for the church Jesus was building. 20 years later he says this was one of the best decisions he ever made. So tune in if you’re curious about the sort of Church Jesus had in mind.

Interview begins at 6m 4s.

Image provided by Wayne Jacobsen. Used with permission.


Finding Church: What If There Really Is Something More

Beyond Sundays


“By not defining it and not giving us a programme he was telling us all we need to know about the Church.” 

“Structure is like our skeleton, any time you’re seeing your skeleton it’s not good. The skeleton supports the life. What happens in our institutions is the structure lives on once the life has gone.” 


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  1. Garry Apr 14, 2016

    Hi there Tim and Dave, loved your discussion with Wayne, and particularly the post discussion amongst the two of you. Loved how you responded to some of Wayne’s comments and the way he looks at things “outside of the box” and with a different perspective. I / we have been on a journey outside of the “church” structures for over 15 years now and crossed paths with Wayne about 6 years ago. He has helped us see and start walking in the “affection of the Father”, to take responsibility for our own walk with Him and, out of that walk, journey together with others. It has been a real challenge and very uncomfortable at times, but full of life. I would just encourage you to keep asking those difficult and uncomfortable questions of Him and each other. Our journey has revealed that there’s life going down that path :-). Love the church that Jesus is building around the world, even down here at the bottom of the world 🙂

    • Hi Gary,
      Great to her from you. It’s really encouraging to know others are out there asking similar questions and on a similar journey.
      I found the conversation with Wayne fascinating and really challenging. Its really pushed me further in my understanding of church, and desire to do things differently.
      Thanks again for dropping us a line.

  2. Stephen May 5, 2016

    Hi guys. This was the first episode I listened to after seeing the link Wayne posted to it. I have been listening to The God Journey for a number of years, and found it very useful and entertaining. Your podcast has a different vibe, but also very useful and enjoyable, so thanks for that.

    There was a couple of things I was going to mention, but I can only think of one right now. You were talking about the place of structure. To me you need structure when trying to accomplish a specific project. This project has a particular goal, a beginning, a middle and an end. These should be considered beforehand, particularly the latter — how will we know we have achieved what we have set out to do? If this project requires a group of people to cooperate, then it will be useful to create a structure to facilitate this. The structure comes into existence at the start of the project, and then is disbanded at the end. (Even if another very similar project is going to succeed the one that is expiring, this will be a new project and will require a new structure.) It sounds quite like what a business would do, and in many ways it is. No CEO is going to sign off on a vague project that will suck up resources and has no clear purpose or end goal, So why do we do this a believers?

    So many structures that are put in place by believers do not follow this healthy project-by-project pattern. They do not have a particular focus. Nor do they have a particular beginning, middle and end. This is one reason we end up with structures that are dead weight, holding us back and restricting the free flow of life.

    • Hi Stephen.

      Thanks for this comment, very interesting and helpful. I really like your idea that structures are only helpful for a defined purpose and time frame. It’s so true in church that the structures tend to linger on, with little or no defined purpose and we spend precious resources maintaining them!

      Thanks again.


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