Rather than our usual interview format, in this episode we’re hosting a conversation. We’ll be listening in on Chine McDonald and Azariah France Wiliiams as they discuss their understanding and experience of blackness and how that has shaped their identity, their place in society and the way they relate to God and Church.

It’s an authentic, moving, and inspiring conversation, and it was a real privilege to be able to listen in.

Interview begins at 10m 

Images provided by Chine McDonald & Azariah France Williams. Used with permission.


Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion

I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness

Natives: Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire

White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism

Is God Colour-Blind?: Insights From Black Theology For Christian Ministry

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race

Brit(ish): On Race, Identity and Belonging

Learning to be White: Money, Race, And God in America

Enfleshing Freedom: Body, Race, and Being


“I spent a month on the island of Nevis working with the Anglican church and all the priests are Black. And so…when you’re the majority group, you just think of yourself as you. You’re just free to be a human. I was just free to be Azariah then with my other priestly colleagues. Whereas here, I do feel like I’m ‘Azariah the Black priest.’ And I’ve got to work against things.” 

“People talk about ‘code switching’…how we adjust our language, our postures to who we think is the dominant in the setting. And so I’m just aware of how often I’ve been shifting myself in order to accommodate what I perceive to be the cultural norms of a setting instead of feeling at ease and free to bring my whole self.” 


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  1. Jacqui Mar 20, 2019

    This was a great episode. Especially when Azariah was describing his childhood bible and people’s stereotypes/preconceived ideas about him that they bring into conversations about him. Thank you for this episode.

    Hope Tim is feeling better now.

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